Point Blank Sexism. Notes from the Bus.

Green Girl LA put up a new post on carless women in LA, this time she featured a New Yorker named Jody.

Jody stated the some of the same complaints I have had since going car less. One of the major draw backs of walking in more populated areas and taking public transit is sexual harassment.

And it’s not just people trying to pick you up. I like cute boys, but it’s not that kind of interaction. It’s real vulgar commentary by people who view you as a hole on legs.

Now at first I really tried to ignore this, but I find more and more that some people’s behavior is completely out of line. And you can’t ignore people. You are forced to be pleasant to these individuals and have insane chit chat, because if you don’t certain individuals get very nasty.

On three separate occasions before I just decided to be “nice” I had to leave a train car owing to being cursed out by men who didn’t appreciate me ignoring their advances. This also happens on the street. If you don’t say hi to people in an enthusiastic enough manner you get, “Why are you such a bitch?”  Or implications that you are a hooker who they can’t afford.

Now I’m not sure what can be done about this, but I think I should be able to walk around on the streets of LA without the commentary.  I think all women should be able to walk around on the streets of LA without the sexually tinged commentary.

I understand in the more economically disadvantaged circles of LA there are lots of issues:

Jobs
Housing
Healthcare
Transportation
Having enough money for food

But I think there is one aspect that has been neglected.

Respect for women.

Not that this doesn’t happen in more economically privileged circles. There is the glass ceiling and lookism and things and those are big deals, but it’s a big deal in a less direct harm (still just as harmful, but less direct.)

I would compare sexual harassment/ gender discrimination on the streets around public transit to dying by being shot point blank in the head in a dark alley and I would compare sexual harassment/gender discrimination in upper middle class world as dying from cancer.  Both are very horrible, but one just seems so much more scary at the time.

The kind of discrimination that I am used to experiencing being a woman makes me mad.

This kind of hate for women that I feel at times on the bus and on the street makes me scared.

And as I said in my interview on Green Girl LA I in general before taking the bus was all about theory and long term and universal, but taking the bus and being exposed and out on the streets has made me realize that immediate harm by people who don’t have power to hurt you economically is still hard on your psyche. It is still something that needs to be viewed as a serious thing.

I know in schools now they try to be very aware in regards to the various cultures of the United States and they attempt to be very respectful, though I’m not sure how successful it is, but what about women and gender equality?

Is that taught in the high schools, jr highs, elementary schools and if it’s not, why not?

To me gender equality and respect for women as human beings is needed not just in the corporate world and not just in the middle class world of college halls, but in the projects, in the high schools and in the elementary schools. Respect for women needs to be priority in the urban core of Los Angeles, New York, Detroit and New Orleans.

Working class women, poor women, women of color who fill those ranks are completely disrespected on a daily basis by men of color.

I see it.

I see it on the bus. I see it on the trains. I see it on the streets. I see it as I pass by skid row hotels in downtown LA and to me the rights of women to be able to just walk up the street doesn’t seem to be a valuable thing or a thing worthy to fight for and why is that?

Even in the feminist movement, that woman seems to be neglected. That woman at the bus stop, it doesn’t seem like feminists in the halls of academia are fighting for that woman. Just because a woman dropped out of high school and is named Lakiesha doesn’t mean she is not a woman.

Access to jobs, education and birth control those are important, but being able to walk to the grocery store in a cute outfit without implications that you are a slut or fearing for you life because of someone’s behavior is important too.

And I feel that is why on the streets where the working class live and breathe why it seems so horrible to be a woman at times, not all of the time. There are lots of great guys out there, but there are lots of guys out there that have no respect and that wouldn’t be a problem, but they act on those internal thoughts against women with complete disregard for consequences and I think the reason is, because there are none.

There are no consequences for heinous behavior against women who don’t have money.
(Read this case of Dunbar Village, if you haven’t heard of this I warn you this is one of the most heinous things I have ever read.)

I think if you’re poor and you’re a woman regardless of race you just have to deal with being called a bitch sometimes and that seems really wrong and warped and not ok and something I’m not used to.

And I think many of us who take the bus who are from a more middle class world, a more white world, we are used to a certain kinds of discrimination the slow moving cancer causing type not so much of shoot you point blank in the face type and I wonder what can we do about that kind of discrimination without demonizing (or patholigizing) the people who do it as being more evil than people who would call Sarah Palin a MILF and find no problem with that, because it’s not so much that it’s worse, but it is something. It is something that should be addressed in a serious way. A way that is as serious as racism or anti-immigration or homophobia and for some reason I don’t think this kind of sexism is addressed in a real concrete way.

And I am at a lost here. I could just get a car and be done with it, but you know what about people who can’t just get in a car?

Browne Molyneux

Comments

[Gary K.]

This has been a serious issues discussed in the cycling community too with woman riders being harassed in the street, men too, but women more so. More then just cat calling, which happens, but actual bodily harm and or theft of property as well. There has been a lot of talk about buying mace in mass, use of a u-lock as a weapon and even stun guns & tasers lately, and that is pretty depressing. A female rider recently had her bike stolen right out from under her by a group of men who stopped their car in front of her and got out and yanked it from her. A male friend unsuccessfully tried to fight them off.

I don't know what is the best thing to be done out about harassment in the streets, but we certainly need to do something.

[browne]

"A female rider recently had her bike stolen right out from under her by a group of men who stopped their car in front of her and got out and yanked it from her." gary

That is fucking outrageous. First thing that needs to happen is every time stuff like that happens people need to blog it and report it.

That is the first I heard of that kind of craziness.

I think we in LA aren't used to being on the streets, because this town is so car oriented, but now with so many of us riding, bussing, walking etc...we're getting a little taste of what it's like for people who live in the more econmically deprived areas of the city and it's a real eye opener and with the economy getting worse, who knows what's to come. I think what we have to do is build networks and we can't just stop going outside (because that will just make it worse,) but it's hard to be a woman out there. You are such an easy mark to desperate people.

And oddly what you described is one of my concerns with riding my bike, you know what if someone just took it off me while I was riding it. I guess that isn't me just being paranoid.

I hope they create some job programs, because if not we're doomed.

That's the thing about LA or anywhere really when people don't have jobs they rob you.

Browne

[browne]

And I don't know what mace is going to do? If a group of guys came up on me and wanted to jack me and I maced one, what about the other three. What if you hit and one and miss? I think in LA in the alt tranportation movement we need to have bus pools or bike pools and be in larger groups, especially women. BusTard walks me from the train station when I come home late and still I get shit from people at times and he can't beat the crap out of everyone, but I appreciate his effort...lol...

There needs to be an acrosss the board education to respect your fellow person on the street. When I'm on the train all of these little old ladies crowd me like I can do something to protect them from what is out there and I can't protect them from certain segments of society that have long been neglected and now view other people as nothing more than tools to take shit from.

Browne

[Gary K.]

Streetsblog has been trying to put a spot light on crimes against cyclists on the Ballona Creek Bike path, but there are quite a few places in the city where one has to watch their back. People are strongly urging each other at certain hours and certain areas to always ride in packs or try to route around certain areas. I think proper routing can avoid many problems, it's usually the no witness zones at off hours where you hear about shit like this going down. Generally speaking instances of bicycle theft in L.A. are much lower then other big cities like New York and Chicago, but there has been a feeling that the problem has been growing worse in Los Angeles. The fact that this happened in the middle of downtown on Spring st. really scares me, it wasn't some secluded off the grid bike path.

The thread discussion about this incident is here:

http://midnightridazz.com/forums.php?topicId=6502&pgnum=1

[writer]

I think bicycle theft is lower in LA, because before it wasn't as many. I think as more people ride it's going to get worse. I've been hearing stories of hold ups on the blue line. El Random on LA Eastside told of a story of how he was jacked for electronic device on the Red Line.

I don't think we should publicize these events not to scare people but to make people aware of what's happening so LA won't do a reenactment of the wild wild west day of the 1990s. I sure don't want to redo that, when in was in high school I thought it was exciting, but now I'm just like, hey I don't want to die (or have someone that I know die) over some bullshit.

This is odd that it happened so close to Bray getting jacked for cash around the same time in not the exact same area, but around the gold line a bit father down.

http://ubrayj02.blogspot.com/2008/12/got-mugged-while-riding-crippled.html

I'll post both of these.

Browne

[writer]

I mean I think we should publicize these incidents...typo...

[Kellsy]

I have lived in Downtown LA for 4 years. Because I work less than a mile from my apartment I also like to walk when I can. I try to avoid walking alone at night because common sense tells me its a bad idea. However walking during the day can often end up seeming like a bad idea as well. Everyone on the street seems to have something to say to me from shop owners to people waiting for the bus to construction workers, to loiterers. I eventually got so tired of the cat calls and stares and inane comments that I wouldn't leave the house without my ipod and sunglasses. But its such a shame (not to mention dangerous) to have to shut out the world around you just to avoid unwanted attention. I'm not afraid to talk back to someone who insults me but what kind of person does that make me when I'm shouting obsenities at people on the street corner? And then there are the instances when there's just nothing you can do. I was taken by surprise a few weeks ago when a biker came up behind me and slapped me on the ass when I was walking to work. I started chasing the dude. I was thinking about all the things I would do and say when I caught up with him but of course he was on his bike, I was on foot. And since its not against the law to slap a girl's ass I would be the one getting arrested for trying to knock a guy down, pepper spray his ass and steal his bike. I'm not sure if tolerance and acceptance of women as human beings is something that can be effectivly taught in school. I hate to sound racist but I think it has more to do with cultural ideologies. 9.99 times out of 10 its a person of African or Latino descent who is trying to harass me. Many times when I open my big mouth to say something back I realize I'm all alone on the street and I still have a ways to go before I reach my destination. One thing I have tried that has been effective is picking my nose. If someone approaches you who you don't want to be nice to, just make yourself unatractive to them by picking your nose. It totally works!

[writer]

That to me is real problem that sexual harassment isn't a crime outside of the corporate world and I think it should be.

I'm not quite sure why this is viewed as ok, when I doubt calling someone on a certain corner everyday a racial slur would definitely be viewed as a problem.

In regards to the cultural thing this is what I think. In LA on the streets you are mainly going to see working class type black guys and latino guys or homeless or near homeless, the white guy equivalent of that guy doesn't exist in LA, not on a large scale in downtown.

We live in a very segregated society. Middle (upper and lower) class people in general only hang out with their same ethnic group, so when you see a black guy or latino guy harassing you on the street you think, "This is what that culture must be like." And that's not crazy to think that, but you have to understand all cultures, black, white, latino, asian etc have wide varieties of types of people. And I'm not saying this is a thing only white people do in regards to generalizing. I meet black people who the only Asian people they have ever met is the Korean-American grocer and from that they form an entire opinion of what it is to be Asian-American. I meet people who are from the Caribbean or Nigeria and they teach in the inner city and from that they draw a conclusion of what all Latinos and African-Americans must be like. I meet people who are from inner city neighborhoods who go to Ivy Leagues which is the first interaction they have ever had with white people on a social level, so they feel that all white people are the same people they meet in college, but what you have to get is that most people in regards to who you see is only one side of the story.

I'm not trying to minimize the issue that within certain more economically disadvantaged people of color in regards to the in your face type sexism, but online I see some real in your face type of sexism by all kinds of guys.

That to me is my real problem in discussing this issue and I think why it scares so many people to talk about it.

There is a real tendency to pathologize people of color owing to a negative characteristic by some members, so instead of us talking about the issue we end up having to talk about the issue of race which completely derails the entire discussion, because we as a society can't really have this discussion until we all agree to stop pathologizing the race of people who do certain things.

There are many other factors outside of cultural that contribute to this type of behavior.

Sexism in the corporate world isn’t viewed as a white cultural thing. It’s viewed as a thing that people who want to keep the power do to oppress women who are a minority in fields of power.

Browne

[Gary K.]

I agree that sexism is a problem that goes beyond racial lines, and that sexism tends takes on a different character based more on social class then race. There is also a lot of sexist feelings that only get expressed between guys talking to other guys, who might seem pretty neutral otherwise. Lots of very derogatory comments swirl around outside the ear shot of women and there is a social pressure to join in that I always avoid. It is far more socially acceptable among men to openly demean women in conversation then to make racially motivated comments.

[Carice Pingenot]

Have you heard of the women only busses in Mexico city?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-01-24-mexicpcity-buses_N.htm
Don't know if it's a viable solution in a cash strapped transit environment, but an interesting idea.
Here in Boston the MBTA has been running a sting to catch gropers, but harrassment is a harder thing to get control of.

There's a lot of discussion about class and transit ridership and I there's a perceived relationship between overt harrassment and class. (a mugging vs cancer is a good way to put it).
When middle class people of both sexes think of the bus as dangerous, unpleasant and with an atmosphere where racial and sexual harassment is common, they will avoid riding the bus, and cede the bus to those who are doing the harassing and those who have no other choice.
Ironically, the more people who don't tolerate harassment ride transit, the more pleasant it will become for everyone.

[Gary K.]

Making driving convenient by providing lots of wide lanes, big subsidized parking lots and under priced meters is what keeps most middle class types off the bus. If people had any real sense of the costs associated with private automobiles we would have a transit boom. The recent spike in gas prices hinted at that possibility with ridership gains across the country. We do have a cultural obsession with automobiles, but if the price is right, I think long held habits can die hard.

[Kellsy]

You're right, we do have a kind of caste system at work that gives the impression that all black men are a certain way and all latino men have an unhealthy macho obsession. Its hard to see beyond what's infront of your face I guess. And I guess I should know better because I have met pleanty of black doctors and lawyers who never found it necessary to demean me. But I have always thought (having been a girl my whole life) that harassment on the street should be as illegal as it is in the corporate world. I can't see how someting like that would be enforced though. I guess I've come to the conclusion that the best defense is self defense. I think it sets an example. Maybe if more women stood up to defend their honor, these people wouldn't bother to harass us as much.

[writer]

"You're right, we do have a kind of caste system at work that gives the impression that all black men are a certain way and all latino men have an unhealthy macho obsession." Kellsy

I am all about open discussion. And I am pretty much over being uneasy with discussing this topic. Because you know in general (maybe I'm totally stupid) I think most people aren't racist or sexist they simply don't know and it's easy to just lump people in a group. That to me is a design of the people who run corporate America. They want you to think you can't talk on this subject or that subject, because you aren't this color or you don't have that gender and I think that's bullshit.

I knew of a white woman who was working with the the African-American community and she told me how she saw certain things that weren't right, but she didn't feel it was her place, but you know that's not true. If you are human and another person is human (ok that sounded stupid, but you know what I’m saying) and you see a wrong it's totally within you right to question and challenge those wrong actions.

It's fine to state what you think even when you may have misinformation, I know I have. I remember once me being half Nigerian I told this woman who was from Nigeria and Muslim that she was oppressed because she was Muslim and Muslim men blah, blah...and well that didn't turn out well :)

But I learned from that experience. I learned that there is more than one way to be a woman and that my interpretation is Islam was mainly gotten from a subjective source.

Most of the things I have learned I have learned because I didn't know and expressed what I didn't know to a person who had more knowledge and from there I read and researched. I've always viewed myself as liberal, but how I'm liberal and why I'm liberal and what liberal is to me is so different than what it was when I was 18 years old.

Expressing what your opinions gives people an opportunity to have self reflection and have a conversation that can add to the solution. I think it's sad that no one talks anymore. How are we going to fix anything if no one will point out the elephant in the room?

That's why to me I think there should be one feminist movement instead the third wave, the first wave, the womanist...because even among women of color there is a tendency for us to patholigize men who share our ethnicity, read Alice Walker or Amy Tan...some real issues with both of those two and I don't think it's them trying to be jerks. I think it's just we need to move past certain things and it's hard.

We can't let bad things happen to people because we think, well that is a cultural thing. I don't think being an asshole is a base of any culture (though I'm oddly positive in regards to humans in general) and I think it's going to take some real deprogramming even amongst people of color to get to that point.

I think the feminist movement should really broaden its scope to include people outside of academia. It's one of the few older movement that doesn't really do on the ground floor of working class type outreach (beyond birth control).

browne

[writer]

"Have you heard of the women only busses in Mexico city?
Don't know if it's a viable solution in a cash strapped transit environment, but an interesting idea." Carice

I saw that. I don't know if I like that idea. It seems like a band-aid fix, but then you know my conundrum now is that I see how this type of harassment is harmful and while a few years back I would have been like, "No, no, we need to work on a longterm solution."

Now I'm like, these women need relief now (hell I need relief.) What can we do to solve this problem now? Not just in the busses, but in public housing, in inner city schools, what can we do to have an immediate impact that doesn't end with us fucking things up even more.

And to me there needs to be an education campaign or something. I don't know. I know in the workplace it probably seemed ridiculous to be able to control unwanted advances, but it got done or at least there are some consequences. Now on the streets, ok, but on public transit where you pay a fare or at a school or in public housing there has got to be something concrete that can be done, of course I don't want more poor men of color involved in they penal system, but I don't want poor women of color to be victimized in this way. Because the rest of us can have philosophical conversations about it, but twenty or thirty years to change a mindset? That seems a long time.

I think first things is that equal outrage when something happens to a poor woman as when it happens to women with more money. It shouldn't matter if she's on welfare or lives in the projects or cleans houses or is a prostitute or if she's undocumented. Anytime a woman is violated regardless of her status it has to be thought of as horrible thing.

To me when a little old lady is robbed that is a hate crime, because a person picked her because a woman is thought to be an easy target.

We also in this have to hold the entire community accountable, because poverty and joblessness is the water that grows this type of behavior.

But I also think its something that is thought of as normal. The harassment, the physical intimidation...

Maybe if we could get people to see this isn't ok, maybe that would be a start. I think knowing the way you should be treated would probably be step one for many women. I think some poorer women don't think they deserve to be treated any better than a piece of trash.

I think the reason I get so mad about sexism and racism is because I've been in situations where I haven't had to experience it. I was very lucky to grow up for a portion of my childhood with very protective and progressive parents who surrounded me with protective progressive people of all races and gender and I think that is what makes me more sensitive than the average person, because I know it's wrong.

I think some poor people of color really don't get that how they are treated is wrong.

And wow what an amazing trick that is, you don't even need to oppress people who don't feel like they deserve anything more but crumbs of half ass respect.

Finally I would like to say anytime people are treated with disrespect it's horrible. Someone threw a shoe at George Bush and it made the papers, because how dare they throw a shoe at the US President, but how dare anyone do anything horrible to anyone. Not saying throwing shoes at Bush is bad, but you get what I'm saying.

Browne

[Damien Newton]

There was a lot of theft involved with the Ridazz holiday ride this year, a lot of it is covered in that thread. Personally, I took the easier CICLE ride as my way of showing holiday cheer on two wheels...during the day, in Pasadena and only 5-10 miles. Much more my wimpy style.

It's tough for me to write about crime and discrimination, because it's not in my background and as a tall white guy I experience it a lot less than anyone who was born differently than me. At Streetsblog I/we covered Ballona and did so much follow-up because I was able to (people kept feeding me information) and readers were interested in taking a stand by organizing the rides, etc. If Streetsblog readers were numerous enough to do this for every trail in the city and every area where peds are getting jacked on a regular basis, I would love to do that sort of reporting and work city-wide.

As for an education campaign or some other way to get people on the street to be less sexist, I sadly agree that it's probably best to focus on the kids and schools. Once someone is raised it may be too late to change their behavior, but with kids you have a fighting chance to teach them how to be better adults.

[Gary K.]

I think we could start by teaching history as a book still open rather then one closed and done with. Judging from U.S. public education history books you would think the movements for civil rights and feminism were done with, things from another era. Although I'm sure history is taught the way it is because to do otherwise would cause social conservatives to throw a screaming fit that the "femininazis" were corrupting our youth with their agenda or some crap.

I think also we need to somehow snap people out of their zombie state of complacency. I think harassment is often allowed to exist because other people around who think it's wrong just sit around and pretend like nothing is happening. People don't get involved in what is happening to someone else, like it is not their problem, but in reality allowing these social problems has negative repercussions for everyone.

[Conrad G]

I think one of the biggest problems is that Guys out there, like myself, who disapprove of harrassment and catcalling are too often silent in the face of these acts. I think all men have a responsibility to stand up for any women they witness being harrassed or catcalled. Im not neccessarily saying they should pick fights with men who saying inappropriate things, but the majority of guys who do this sort of behavior usually do it to show bravado and their masculinity to other men. IF we stop being silent and express our displeasure with digust at these acts, It will become less and less appealing, and at the same time, Women will feel less and less isolated and attacked because their will be visible examples of men defending their rights instead of every male being seen as a malefactor or threat.

[Kellsy]

Here, here Conrad. It would be a brave thing if more men had the courage to stand up for their women. I sure wouldn't mind the help. Its a difficult decision though because it could turn a pleasent afternoon for you into a black eye.